Category: News and Views
How do you guys feel about Israel, Palestine, or anything that has to do with these topics. Let me know.
I'd tell you here, but it probably would stir up so much controversy. All I can say is, I'm unconditionally for Israel. I hope there can be peace, but if there can't, I'm still for Israel.
IaI agree totally.
Ok guys, I just want to see you explain and justify why you are all for Israel.
It's not contraversy it is discussing things. I personally don't undersstand why Israel has all the rights in the middle east seeing as they were planted there in 1945 and fought a bloody war to ever expand their teritory and used military backing from the U.S. to kill of their neighbours and expand their land, and why do they have to be exempt from nuclear treaties and why do they receive finaincial aid that can be used to settle lands that don't belong to them and protect those settlers with tanks and bombs and walls and make lives unberable for the local population. The best thing I can say for Israel right now is Ariel Sharon is beginning to realize that they must become a part of international community and that the peace process must be sped up and a real solution of an independent Palestine and Israel co-existing is the only way peace can be brought about. I'm not again Jews or Israel per say, not at all some of my friendsa re Jewish and even some of them are shocked and horrified by the way Israel has handleed the conflict, but the aggression and killing of thousands of innocent Palestinian cevilians and the border closing that is causing tremendous amount of suffering every day is unforgivable and, as for terrorists, about 800 Israelian civilians have been killed since the Intefata I believe but the number of innocent Palestinian cevilians killed is in the thousands, I think both are horrifying numbers, no innocent civilian should ever be killed, but you can't defend the act of guys going in shooting little school girls as self defense for terrorism, they are no better than the terrorists themselves.
I'd like to see your views and why you are unconditionally for Israel, not to prove you wrong necessarily but to understand, may be I am just seeing one side of the story and that would not be fair .. so pro Israeli folks, speak up please.
cheers
-B
Both Israel and Palestine are as guilty as sin in exacerbating this conflict. Israel seem to be occupying territories that it would be better they didn't occupy, palestine exacerbate the problem with their own efforts at hindering peace processes. Both sides have been guilty of wanton destruction and that continues to date. It's an example of bigotted sectarianism which Tony Blair is quite right to do his best to put an end to. So if it was an endorsement for the Israelis you were hoping for, Israeli Chick, it's not going to be forthcoming from me. In fact, I would reject such an idea in the most robust possible manner.
Being a Christian myself, and believing in God, and what He promised Israel, I simply believe Israel's trying to claim what is rightfully theirs, and if God promised it to them, then they should have it. however, I also do not believe they'll get everything that's due them until the Messiah comes, and conquers all the nations, and brings the world under a true one-world government with himself at the helm. In the meantime, however, the peace process certainly wouldn't hurt, and everyone just needs to learn to get along.
Krajiel I agree with the last bit of your post i.e. the part that doesn't sound rather sanctimonious fundamentalist posturing. aS to that part of it i.e. the first part about conquering all nations etc. that sort of talk wouldn't have sounded out of place during the time of the crusades. Religion is about what we do, not what we are. What all the innocent people who die because of fanatics on the Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever religion you like side are, are simply people trying to live their lives. As I said before, both sides are guilty as sin of prosecuting their supposedly holy, but ever more unholy, conflict.
I'm a Christian myself by the way, in case you were wondering, but I have never been - and nor shall I ever be - so arrogant as to assume that the ideology to which I happen to subscribe is right to the exclusion of all others. Terrorism and fundamentalism is dangerous and wrong, no matter which faith lies at the bottom of it.
I agree with you, lolord, in that religion is what we do, as opposed to what we are. In my way of thinking, however, the war is not about Jew and Muslim, although they try to make it such. It is about Israelite and Ishmaelite. I'm not speaking from opinion, actually, but being one who studies the Bible. I believe people are confused as to why these people are fighting,, and even people who are now engaged in the battle have it all wrong.
Well I'm not shy . I think its dispicable and quite disturbing when the Israeli tanks rumble in to Jerusalem like Rommel's panzer division and begin firing on young men throwing stones! They are nothing short of murders as are the Palestinian suicide bombers there is no answer to the problem as both sides are consumed with total and utter hate.
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I watched a disturbing programme on this problem and what scared me most was a 3yr old Jewish girl and a palestinian suicide bomber showed on a split screen both repeating the same bigoted ignorant hate filled poison! That is unforgivable the adults make a choice to kill themselves but for f.cks sake leave the children out of it!.
Kragiel,
so let me ask you this?
Did God specify exactly what he ment by "Israel" belonging to "Israelites"? I mean, what teritory especially was taked about, I can't imagine God handing them a map, and the fight is not about the existance of Irsrael or their rights to resist, it's about them persuing an expansionary policy and trying to claim more and more land as their own and exporting settlers into the neighbouring countries protected by tanks and their army. And what if Allah promised Israel to the people of Palestine, which religion is right? Does that mean the Jews should have it because God promised it to the Jews, remember Jews, Mulsims and Christians essentially have the same God, so to speak. The Muslims even accept Jesus as a maziah, just not as the liberator, Jews accept neither him nor Mohamed.
So basically how can this fight be based on religion, it shouldn't control the way nations behave. And, again, this fight is not about eradicating Israel as a state,it's never been about that except for the most extreme folks who will not get backing even from their own kind, it's about stopping the blood bath on both sides, it's about giving the Palestinians some incentive to form their own state and have their own loand which will give them more incentive to reign in the extremist who are taking innocent lives, you can't win a ward with bombs only, you need the genuine will of the people who stop, in order to engage the Palestinians you must give them a hope of a future, it doesn't have to be prefect and they will have to give in to some claims but so far their claims have been ingored and suppressed with miliatry might, it's not right, it's not just and it won't lead to peace. I am reasonably optimistic that change is coming and I hope and pray this will in fact be the case. But you can't give unilateral backing to one of the nations, it's entirely wrong.
Cheers
-B
I have to agree. Both of them are guilty. Thanks for the new look at it.
Sure, both are guilty, and they should definitely make some compromises. However, that doesn't stop me from believing wholeheartedly that when the Hebrews' Messiah comes, He will give Israel what is rightfully theirs.
Kragiel, are yuou Jewish? Just out of curiousity. I guess Christians won't really believe that since they belive the mazziah already came and so the Israeli people who missed that are not with the program so to speak. :) But it's as right as any other religion so I'm just asking out of curiousity. We all believe that we'll get what we deserve in the end and it's not really up to us what happens then. In the meantime, however, whatever religion we are it's out duty to try and share our planet and learn to live together and not sending each other prematurely to whatever awaits us in the next world (if one exists, for the benefit of the atheists on the site).
So, I think we're all in general agreement here that this war is useless and regretable and both sides have failed to do enough to stop the violence and that we can only hope for a more directed peace nigotiations and countries taking sides against each other, the sooner everyone recognizes that it takes two nations to fight and both are making less than desirable progress the sooner the conflict may be resolved though international pressure on both sides.
Cheers
-B
And I might add to that this thought: if the messiah is going to give it back to them anyway, why don't they just wait? It might sound like a joke, but these fundamentalists might do well to remember the doctrines of their faith i.e. that god is the ultimate arbiter and it is not for man to sit in judgment.
I'm not Jewish. i am a Christian, and I believe Jesus Christ is Israel's Messiah. Lolord, you are correct, that when the Messiah comes as ruler, He will give to Israel what rightfully belongs to them. Meantime, they do need to make peace with their neighbors. No, i'm not for all the killing and violence, either, but I do believe that the land Israel and Palestine are fighting for belongs to Israel, and some day, everyone will see that.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it and I'd be the last person to criticise your beliefs, but you must admit of the possibility that you might, just might, be wrong.
OK, now I am thorroughly confused. Kragiel, if we as Christians claim to be correct and the day of doom will come, well, now that Israel belongs to Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus Christ, won't that mean that the Jewish people will, indeed, go to hell forever because they don't belive in him and therefore cannot be liberated from their sins? I thought that was the Christian message. Against I'm speaking purely from a Christian religious perspective here, not saying anyone deserves to go to that hot place indeed, even if a little bit of the heat from there might be nice during the coldest months of the winter. So, are the Jews going to inherit Israel for a fraction of a second and then they have to depart for destination underworld? I hope they'll feel better knowing that they inherited Israel at least, but I still don't see what this has to do with the modern day politics really.
it's all blasphemy I tell you, repent!
Lol no, not quite, wild. See, the only reason the Gentiles even have access to Christianity, according to the book of Acts, is because the Jews rejected Christ as their messiah. However, when He comes back, the Jews will accept him, because of all the stuff that's gone on here in the world, according to the book of Revelation, and at that time, salvation will not be by faith, it will be by sight. It gets a lot deeper, and I'm probably not explaining it well, but with a 4000 character limit, it'd be kinda hard. Lol! At any rate, when Christ comes to rule and reign, the Jews will in fact inherit Israel, and those that believe on Him will not go to that awful place.
If revelation will be by sight, why do the majority of zone members bothrr eh? Best revel in our sins while we have the opportunity to sin. Good lord, did he really say that? shocking! ban him immediately!
Hahaha lawlord. I think blind people can still get in, even though they can't see Jesus! Lol!
Hmm, yes, we'll have to see, I suppose blind peole will just have to touch Jesus, that way getting rid of embarressing deseases such as dandroff and Clamidia in the process .. wait, why would blind people get such a thing, they keep their hair sparkling clean and have exceptional scallop what am I talking. :)
Kragiel, thanks for the pointer I am cuurious now so I am going to dig up my copy of the bible and find this book you referred to :) it's a very interesting read eve if you are a non-Christian (I am Christian in fact) .. I think blind people should inherit Manhattan or possibly Aruba, too bad it's not written in the bible, we'll just have to see what we get .. ecept we can't see of course .
First, I think that Jerusalem should be a 'no mans land' meaning that it should be declaired as holy ground and be ruled by a Jewish, a Christian and a Moslem high religious person. The 3 should decide what happens with the holy city. Each year one of the 3 will be 'top dog': one year the Jewish, one year the Chistian, one year the Moslem and so on. No other government should have any saying.
Second, Israel was used by the USA and the rest of the Western world during the Cold War as a 'front' against USSR or Soviet Russia. Since most of the other middle eastern countries supported the Soviet Russia and bought weapons from them (does the word Kalashnikof mean anything to anyone here?) the Capitalist west had to have a country close by -if not in the middle of it all- as a base to be able to lounge an attack against the Soviet Russia when needed. That is why Israel received money and support from the west and USA. It was a useful strategic country and as we all know, no country supports any other country without any personal gain (political and military). Finally, as Israel was a refuge for many of the Jews from Europe fleeting the Nazi regime and the Jews of the Soviet Russia fleeting the pogroms, many Jews from the USA offered money to help them get established in a new home -the promised land- where they could recoperate from the horrors of war and prosecution. For those who assume that Israel 'took' the land from the Palestinians, let me just say that the land didn't belong to the Palestinians. Prior to Jewish settlement it belonged to the British (are we surprised?) and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire and belonged to Turkey. Before that it belonged to many other nations none of them being Palestine! If you don't believe me do a search on google on the history of palestine and find out for your self. The last time the land belonged to the Palestinians was before Jesus was even born! (surprised again???)
For one thing, We will have sight when we get to heaven. And another, Jesus wil come to Jerusalem, put his foot on the mount of Loives which will then split into two parts. The city of Jerusalem will be raised up and changed. Also, Jesus will rule from there for a thousand years while The Devil is locked up in a bottomless pit. Of course, That's after the seven years of tribulation in which all who remain of Israel will be saved. At least, theones who remain at the end. But they will have to come to the belief in Jesus as Messiah. Just like the rest of us will have to, or we choose to rather. Actually, not all of us choose to believe in jesus, which is fine. Whatever floats your boat, but Israel is The Apple of God's eye. Therefore, I claim them as My People, and also God will not allow Israel to be destroyed completely.
Star
That was some good historical overivew actually, some of this I didn't know.
Well, the land being disputed here, I do believe, is the land taken by Israel in the 1967 war and the Palestinian claim is for Israel to withdraw its borders back to the pre-1967 line, I do believe back then what we now call Palestine belonged to Syria to some extent. I should have studied this in more detail but I believe this to be true. So, where I am talking about land belonging .. well in quotes, to the Palestinian people I am referring to that particular area, not the entire Israeli state which, religion or no religion, as far as I am concern has a full right to exist just like any other country. In any case they must do something to restrict their state borders because the so-called Israeli Arabs have a birth rate 4 to 5 times higher than that of the Jews which will make the Arab "minotiry" a majority i about 50 or so years and unless they be subdued and kept as second-hand citizens in their own country Israel must offer them a way to establish their own state and keep stricter regulations governing their own, that is if they insist on Israel being the symbol of judiism in the world. Of course it can be claimed that Israel did not start the 1967 war, fine, I don't know about that, but what I do know is that they are exempt from too many international regulations and I don't feel that it's fair that any one country in the world, no matter which country it is can be exempted from what is regarded as national duties. I think the idea concerning Jerusalem is actually an excellent one indeed. :)
So blind people on the Zone rejoyce, you will be able to see one day,
Cheers
-B
The things Israel wants to make peace. They're willing to do whatever, but it won't change anything. Syria has always hated them. It's kind of a no-win situation. Things won't be right until Messiah comes. I hope he comes soon. At least, for my people's sake.
Israel wants to make peace? I'm afraid that in that case it sends out mixed signals. I'm afraid also that all this nonsense about to whom the land belonged is not on point anymore. We could carve up the entirety of Europe and asia in that fashion if we wished to, but we don't. star I think your idea for the governance of Jerusalem is interesting, but it wouldn't work as these two peoples have savages in amongst them, and the two bunches of savages refuse to work together. By the two sides, I mean the Jews and the Muslims. There are also some christian fundamentalists of course, who are equally contemptable in my view. As I have said, we can speculate about to whom the land belonged prior to 1967, prior to the war, prior to the Ottoman and british empires, but that doesn't get us anywhere. Indeed, it's the same misguided path that the two sides in the Northern Ireland conflict followed remorselessly before the peace process became more enlightened in the province. And finally in defence of the british: maybe the land did belong to us at one time, but so did a lot of land which we ceded to the current owners without fighting wars, unlike the french who hung on to Algeria and the cote d'ivoir till grim death. Whatever you think of British perceived harshness, persecution and colonialism, we have had a very long history and over time our coppybook was bound to be blotted by events of which we should not be too proud. America also has dark episodes in its brief history, showing that there is no cause for any country to be self-righteous.
LL.I must correct you there the peace proccess was failing in N.I then in a moment of desperation blair handed the IRA ect a bribe ...sorry a deal "cease all terrorist activities hand in your weapons and we will ensure N.Ireland's ecomnomic stability" or words to that effect the Irish being as canny as their cousins the Scots took the bribe ...deal and lo the violence doth cease.
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"Jehova Jehova" "stone him he said Jehova! .
LL.I must correct you there the peace proccess was failing in N.I then in a moment of desperation blair handed the IRA ect a bribe ...sorry a deal "cease all terrorist activities hand in your weapons and we will ensure N.Ireland's ecomnomic stability" or words to that effect the Irish being as canny as their cousins the Scots took the bribe ...deal and lo the violence doth cease.
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"Jehova Jehova" "stone him he said Jehova! .
As I say, we don't know everything about everything. It's in the hands of the one who knows all. He's the one who KNOWS Israel's real territory. I believe God was going to give them all the land they needed, but they would have to obey him. He said don't worry about: I'll take care of it. BUt they didn't listen, and that why, in my opinion, they're fighting today. It's because they refused to listen, and they are paying the price for it. The jews and Israelis are a stubborn people. Arguing with them is like arguing with a brick wall.
I'm not trying to talk bad about them, That's how they are, and they'll tell you themselves that they are like that. There be no shame in their game.
I lovwe my people, and what they've stood for all these years. When you go over there, they're not commercialized like America is. They use what they have. It is incredible. For example, they pushed two twin matresses together to make a queen bed. They don't waste anything.
With reguards this issue I'd like to point out that the muslims kicked the jews out of their country first, so the jews were just taking it back. Also Palestine was a British colony, therefore the British owned it just like they own the Folklands, therefore, rightly or wrongly it was up to them what they did there and they chose to let the jews go there. If you owned a house where an islamic family lived, you could kick them out and put a sikh family there if you wanted to, it's your house, your property, your decision. I think that the Palestinions should have the west bank and Gaza as well and be allowed to have a capital city anywhere within that teretory, That might sort the problem. Also, when Israel has chosen to strike leaders of terrorist organisations, when I've heard on the news about masses of people chanting support for those organisations in big clusters, I have thought that those are potential terrorists and that if Israel had any sense it would bomb all those people and bhlow them up before they blew themselves up in front of Innocent Israely civilians. Also though, if they got rid of conscription in Israel, that'd make Israely civilians more innocent in the eyes of palestinions.
WW, there is the huge problem with the beginning of things, what is your "beginning of time" point. Surely people used to live in this region even before the first reported events in the bible, they can't have been either Muslim or Jewish since niether of these relegions had been formulated back then. And well, the British really had no more ownership over the country than anyone else, I think the disagreements between the Israelis and the Plestinian people have nothing to do with the British colonial times, the British also owned the U.S. for some years, they really should have rights to determine what happened here too then shouldn't they?
You can't judge someone before they commit their rime, if you punished people based on their popularity or what you perceive to be their inetnions you'd have more executions than traffic accidents. Such a hab hazzard and biast approach is ridiculous frankly, and what about the Israeli soldiers that the Palestinians perceive as terrorizing, bull dozing down the houses, killing innnoocent civilians and claiming it to be bad luck or an accident, aren't they then subjected to the same type of punishement, both killed innocent civilians, I believe more Palistinian than Israeli innocent civilians have died in this uprising and that's really the only objective thing you hvae, the count of dead bodies, not method, not idiology, all that is subjective and can be interpreted and twisted to suit a particular purpose. This beiong said, yes, I agree with your solution, I'm not saying Israel should disappear and I think both nations have the right to establish their own states. For one thing if Israel does not do this the Israeli Arab population (they must incorporate these areas into Israel or set them free, they can't just occupy them forever) would become a huge majority of voters and the state of Israel as a Jewish state would no longer exist, Sharon realizes this and is, in a way, trying to protect the state of Israel by rushing peace nigotiations.
cheers
-B
That was awesome! I agree. I feel like that both of them have played a part in this. I just wish things will work out, but they won't. Not anytime soon.
For once, I agree with WW! Very well said!
I still stand with my people.